Sunday, March 27, 2011

Quranic Numerology

For centuries the main Muslim argument for the Muajezat Al Quran, the miracle of the Quran, has been the challenge thrown out by Muhammad 1400 years ago, "You produce poetry this good if you don't think mine is from God (Quran 10:38)".

I've always thought the Prophet's argument (or Allah's depending on your perspective) was quite juvenile. Determining the best poet is like choosing the best musician on American Idol - it's all subjective. Not only that, in Muhammad's version of Saudi Arabian Poet the runner-up lost not only the contest but her head as well. Muhammad was so threatened by the poetry of the Jewish poetess Asma bint Marwan that he sent one of his brave Mujahidin to kill her at night as she laid in bed with her nursing child. Can you imagine what he would have done to someone who wrote poetry claiming it was from God and equal to his?

Actually, we don't need to imagine. When Muhammad conquered Mecca, the city from which he had fled 10 years earlier, he had a list of people who were to be killed "even if they were seeking protection behind the curtains of the Kabah". One of these was Abdallah bin Saad, who had previously copied Muhammad's revelations but then left Islam.  According to these sources, Abdallah made suggestions to improve Muhammad's recitations, but when Muhammad accepted the improvements, Abdallah gave up all belief that the recitations were from God.  The Prophet certainly didn't want to take a chance Abdallah would produce poetry similar to that he had heard from Muhammad, or spread the news of how he had improved Muhammad's recitations, so he was killed. A woman named Fartana committed the crime of "singing satirical songs about the Apostle", and she was killed as well. I find it interesting that on the one hand Muhammad would challenge people to produce poetry like his, and then on the other certainly kill anyone who tried. And I find it amazing that Muslims today see this as evidence of the inspiration of the Quran.

It's not really that difficult to produce poetry equal to the Quran. Surah 108 describes a mythical river in paradise named Kauthar and the first ayah is Innana Ataynaka Al Kauthar (We have given you Kauthar). In a conversation between a Kafir and a Mumin (a non-Muslim and a Muslim), the Kafir said, "I can produce poetry as good as the Quran, and here is an example: Innana Ataynaka Al Fauthar." When the Mumin asked, "What is Fauthar?", the Kafir replied, "It's the river next to Kauthar!"

With non-Muslims around the world beginning to examine not the poetry but the content of the Quran, and Muslims unable to respond to that criticism, they are increasingly resorting to other techniques to prove its miraculous nature with websites like this one. One of these techniques is numerology, or assigning spiritual significance to the repitition of a word in the Quran. Many online articles emphasize that the word Al Yaum, which means the day or today, is mentioned 365 times in the Quran.

I find it quite impressive that Allah would choose the calendar of the Kuffar rather than that of the Mumineen to express his miracle. It is the pagan Julian calendar that has 365 days, not the Islamic lunar calendar with ten days less. Muslims, of course, argue this only increases the validity of the miracle - it was intended to persuade the unbelievers!

Speaking of numerology, the word Muhammad is mentioned 4 times in the Quran. Guess how many times Khanzeer (pig) is mentioned? You are absolutely right. Now there's a miracle for you!

34 comments:

capercaillie said...

"One of these was Abdallah bin Saad, who had previously copied Muhammad's revelations but then left Islam (one wonders what it was about the revelations that made him change his mind)."

Err.. Wasn't this related to the fact that Muhammad allowed some slight rephrasing suggestion of one of the "revelations", which then would imply that it wasn't exactly "the word of Allah"?

See: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Sources/sarh.html

Quotable Quotes: said...

Capercaillie,
Thank you for your comment. I was reading Ibn Ishaq as I wrote this post, and forgot that other references gave the additional information you mentioned in your link.

Bobby said...

Scribing during the life of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). The Revelation scribes wrote down the Quran, according to the order of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), on pieces of cloth, leather, bones, and stones.

Anonymous said...

Another view on the 'produce a sura like it' verse.

Imagine a chef cooks his best dish and a six year old child says that he didn't like it.

The chef would be ashamed to say to the child, 'You don’t like it ? Okay then, let's see if you can cook it better than me'.

But Allah is not ashamed to challenge his puny creation, "Bring then a Sura like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!" Q 10.38

Anonymous said...

"Speaking of numerology, the word Muhammad is mentioned 4 times in the Quran. Guess how many times Khanzeer (pig) is mentioned?"

well jesus is mentioned 28 times. so does that mean jesus is better/greater than mohammed?

Anonymous said...

I have commented on this topic a few times; all one has to do is to replace the word "momin" with the word "kafir" or "kafir" with "momin" and one can have as many verses like quran as there are words "kafir" or "momin".

whitney said...

yes. Jesus is better than mohammed

Anonymous said...

in islam no prophet is greater than the other.

If you are christian then ofcourse you would say jesus is better as for muslims both are great.

jews deny jesus christ , muslims dont.

But if you say jesus is better because mohamed is evil and did *insert here*...then this has been discussed many times.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/03/the-suicide-bomber-prophet/

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/03/who-was-the-most-violent-prophet-in-history/

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/03/warrior-prophet-moses-or-muhammad/


Its usually christians who attack mohamed today, i dont see that many athiests attacking mohamed, if they did they would also attack and mock jesus , moses and other religions and use science, not just concentrate on mohamed/islam.

If you are a christian or a jew and you attack/criticize islam or mohamed then be prepared to defend your bible/torah.

Dont say jesus is better than mohamed, and peaceful when we know jesus said: "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" (Gospel of Matthew 10:34)

Now you going to say that the sword is just a metaphor and i misunderstood the verse and took it out of context and that jesus is really peaceful.

well i'm only using the same strategy against you.

Anonymous said...

Well.... let's see.
What happens if an atheist just dare to make a little and unharmful draw of Muhammad?????
And....
What happens if the same atheist oppenly shows a crucifix in urine, or a nude and obscene picture of Jesus Christ?
Obviously you have never see an american TV how or an american cartoon...
Well, one thing is for sure; you will never see or heard something mocking of Muhammad without lethal and violent consecuences, but verily you will see a LOT of mockery and obscenity about Christianity without any REAL violent consecuences in the way the muslims do.
Surely, we are sheeps living among wolves, like the good book says.

Greenforest said...

To the commenter at March 28, 2011 8:19 PM:

1. Prominent atheists such as Sam Harris, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and Richard Dawkins have all claimed that Islam is the worst religion today. Harris and Hirsi Ali are especially clear on this point.

2. On Jesus' sword metaphor, the reader of the full passage would have to be completely idiotic to think it referred to a literal sword. I still don't like the verse because it is warning about social division that could arise as a consequence of differences between Christians and others. But it is not referring to warfare or killing. By comparison, in the contexts (Hadith, Sira) behind the Qur'anic verses calling upon Muslims to engage in warfare on the basis of religion, Muhammad was talking about real fighting, real swords, real killing, real enslaving, real raping, real plunder, real usurping of land.

Greenforest said...

(continuing)

"in islam no prophet is greater than the other"

The shahada: "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the messenger of God."

Looks like only one prophet finally made that very short and exclusive list. (I've read that some Shias do add Ali too, though it's not required like Muhammad).

Greenforest said...

...that is, Ali was added as a "viceroy"

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Muslim said..."in islam no prophet is greater than the other".

And when's the last time Muslims went on a killing rampage because someone insulted Jesus or Moses?

I hope you realise that IF it were true that Muslims believe all prophets are equal, Almost NO atheist in his/her right mind would EVER insult Jesus again.

Anonymous said...

if i was living at the time of jesus and was following jesus i would have said : there is no god but allah and jesus is his messenger.

even though before jesus there was moses david solomon and others.

============
""the reader of the full passage would have to be completely idiotic to think it referred to a literal sword.""

Like i said be prepared for others to use that same strategy against you. Yes i might have to read it in full , find out the context etc etc...

But it is what christians are doing now to muslims, taking verses out of the quran or some passage in hadith and claiming islam supports murder, genocide etc etc...

Dont throw stones if you live in a glass house.

Thats whats being asked.

Anonymous said...

Green forest

If you are a christian, then the above links to loonwatch i gave suffices.

most of the attacks/accusations comes from jews and christians in my opinion.

athiests wouldnt say things like mohamed is a murderer commmited genocide is a rapist, war monger etc.. unless maybe if they said the same thing of others like jesus and moses etc..

yes there are some athiests who attack islam because its fashionable today and they have an agenda, because all religions are evil to them(athiests) yet they criticise and concentrate/focus only on mohamed and islam when the bible is also full of genocide and murder.

So would i listen to and watch richard dawkins online? yes because he attacks all religions equally.

So in short if you are a christian/jew the same things you say about islam will be said about christianity/judaism.

If i say jesus came with a sword and not peace, you will say no no you took it out of context or you misinterpreted, and i will not accept that i will continue to persist and say jesus did come with the sword to kill and murder everyone that didnt accept him.

You see this is what christians are doing today, so the same will be done, because you shouldnt be throwing stones in a glass house.

Thats why i said if an Athiest attacks islam its fine, if athiests say mohamed is evil and did so and so...fine we accept those criticisms.

Because 1. once they're done with islam/mohamed they move on to jesus/christianity etc..

2. They have no holy scripture which we (muslims/christians/jews) can attack and criticise :P :)

where as christians just attack and criticise islam/mohamed and claim mohamed is a rapist and murderer when the same could be said of jesus moses and other biblical prophets in the bible.

Greenforest said...

To Anonymous at March 29, 2011 3:58 PM:

"if i was living at the time of jesus and was following jesus i would have said : there is no god but allah and jesus is his messenger."

That's one possible interpretation and one possibility, at that time. However, the only prophet Muslims refer to today is Muhammad. They do not even rotate it, like having Jesus one week, Moses another, and so on. It's always Muhammad.

"Like i said be prepared for others to use that same strategy against you."

They can use the strategy but it doesn't mean it's valid to do so. It depends on the content, as well as the main interpretations. The NT itself is clear enough that that particular "sword" verse is metaphorical. If anyone has ever taken that verse as an excuse to kill people with a sword, let me know.

I think what some Christians and atheists and other non-Muslims are doing now, when they/we criticize Islamic texts, is start with the problems in Islam today and then look at the verses some Muslims themselves use, and have used historically in Islamic law and in jihad policy etc., to justify the actions. So when we look at the apostasy penalties, we turn to the verses and hadiths pertaining to that. We aren't making up interpretations of the verses; Muslims have already done that.

Greenforest said...

To Anonymous at March 29, 2011 4:23 PM

"athiests wouldnt say things like mohamed is a murderer commmited genocide is a rapist, war monger etc.. unless maybe if they said the same thing of others like jesus and moses etc.."

Well I'm an atheist and based on the Qur'an, Hadith and Sira I would definitely say that the character Muhammad as described did in kill, rape, enslave, plunder, and take other people's land. I know Muslims don't see it that way, but I'm looking at it objectively in terms of what he is said to have done. Ordering the killing of mere poets and "singing girls" is not legitimate self-defense; it is ordering murder. Waging war against people on the basis of religion is not legitimate; it is mass-killing.

"yes there are some athiests who attack islam because its fashionable today"

No, it's not fashionable to do so, and there are perfectly valid reasons for criticizing Islam.

"there are and they have an agenda,"

Yes, criticizing evil doctrine and policies.

"because all religions are evil to them(athiests) yet they criticise and concentrate/focus only on mohamed and islam when the bible is also full of genocide and murder."

No, I don't think one of the major branches of Buddhism is evil. I don't think Jainism is evil. I would not even say that the Christianity practiced and understood by the majority of Christians is evil. But they are tied to the Old Testament, unfortunately, and don't seem willing to shake it off or revise it and remove the bad material. Islam is similar, but there is a higher percentage of Muslims who are practicing an evil interpretation and they too are tied to a bad book that is even more difficult for them to reject or revise.

"So in short if you are a christian/jew the same things you say about islam will be said about christianity/judaism."

But they aren't equal. Islam today is worse, due to the harsh punishments for blasphemers and apostates, and so on--I could go through a long list of problems here.

"You see this is what christians are doing today, so the same will be done, because you shouldnt be throwing stones in a glass house."

By that policy, no one would ever criticize anything unless they themselves were somehow perfect or impervious. That's not how it works. In science and in academia criticism is an important part of the method of getting closer to the truth. Religion should be no different.

Thats why i said if an Athiest attacks islam its fine, if athiests say mohamed is evil and did so and so...fine we accept those criticisms.

"claim mohamed is a rapist and murderer when the same could be said of jesus moses and other biblical prophets in the bible."

Well no, Jesus didn't rape anyone, though I'd have to check re Moses. But Muhammad took women captives and had sex with them, and common sense tells us that is rape. Also, with Aisha, at 9 years of age, that is clearly rape because the child cannot make an informed and mature consent to the act.

Anonymous said...

"However, the only prophet Muslims refer to today is Muhammad. They do not even rotate it, like having Jesus one week, Moses another, and so on. It's always Muhammad."

Its always mohamed because, mohammed is the prophet/messenger of muslims. Not jesus or moses. After jesus mohamed came, so mankind must follow mohamed because mohamed came for mankind. Jesus came for jews/israelites/sons of israel moses came to the sons of israel/israelites as well.

So muslims accept jesus/moses/jacob/solomon etc..but we follow mohamed and the quran.

So on the day of judgement, christians who followed jesus and believed in allah will say my prophet was jesus, where are muslims will say my prophet was mohamed.

So yes muslims refer to mohamed today, i dont see why you are making a big deal out of it..whats the issue here? i mean muslims are still required to believe in all other prophets/meessengers of god.

for the remainder of your post, i agree, criticise and attack you are an athiest.

What i object to is christians/jews attacking/criticising mohamed marrying young girl when there is similar child marriages in bible.

"By that policy, no one would ever criticize anything unless they themselves were somehow perfect or impervious. That's not how it works."

My point was there are people who dont want debate, who are just here to attack and mock and call god (allah) a rapist or mohamed a murderer and leave it at that.

So if you are a christian or a jew and you want to debate, you dont start with saying god is a rapist and that is why i dont believe in mohamed or islam. If you do say that then I would say something similar of the bible/jesus and show the verse/reference in the bible.

So yeah i know it sounds silly and childish. It likes hey he did that (rape/murder etc..) so i'm gona do it too. Or yeah my quran says that but your bible says that too!

but that strategy is used to those who act high and mighty and act as if they are perfect and jesus is perfect. Thats why i keep repeating dont throw stones....

jihad series of loonwatch best describes it.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/03/the-understanding-jihad-series-is-islam-more-likely-than-other-religions-to-encourage-violence/

at first i thought Danios was muslim, the way islam was defended i find out later he is an athiest.

So here we have Danios an athiest defending Islam from falsehood (soon he will criticise/attack islam also) and we have you also athiest disagreeing with danios and may have different interpretations of quran/islam than danios.

so people like richard dawkins fine, but robert spencer? well be prepared to defend your bible.(if you are christian)

"Also, with Aisha, at 9 years of age, that is clearly rape because the child cannot make an informed and mature consent to the act."

thats hadith, i personally dont believe it. One woman researcher i watched on tv said according her research aisha was around 15-19 when she married.

Anonymous said...

Moses, Jesus and other Bible figures have absolutely nothing to do with allah the Satan, islam, mohammad and muslims. Allah the Satan, mohammad and muslims are Liars and Antichrist according to 1John2:22 which clearly states that the one that denies the Father and the Son is the Antichrist, the Liar; and allah the Satan, mohammad and muslims deny and condemn the belief in the Father and the Son.

Greenforest said...

Responding to March 29, 2011 9:00 PM:

"So yes muslims refer to mohamed today, i dont see why you are making a big deal out of it..whats the issue here? i mean muslims are still required to believe in all other prophets/meessengers of god."

Again, why don't they rotate the prophets in the shahada then? You know it wouldn't be merely me making an issue about it. If a Muslim proposed to include other prophets, say Jesus one time, Moses the next, Muhammad the next, Solomon the next, and so on, there would probably be a massive uproar over this. And that's a problem. Mainstream Islam today is too brittle.

"at first i thought Danios was muslim, the way islam was defended i find out later he is an athiest."

Well, in the coauthored article with Dawood they wrote "Our Creator" so that seems to imply he is not an atheist. Perhaps his game is to keep people guessing. But the important thing is that he is engaging in Islam apologetics.

"thats hadith, i personally dont believe it. One woman researcher i watched on tv said according her research aisha was around 15-19 when she married."

Based on what? I've seen these alternative arguments and they don't hold up ,if you take the sources (Hadith, Sira, historians such as Tabari, etc.) seriously. Besides, the main thing is that the majority of Muslims today and especially those in authority have to put policies in place to stamp out this practice or marriage to and sexual relations with underage girls.

Anonymous said...

"there would probably be a massive uproar over this. And that's a problem. Mainstream Islam today is too brittle."

yes probably you're right. there would be some kind of uproar, but only in some muslim countries.

Again these dictatorships dont allow protests and shoot their own people, but when protesting against israel or danish cartoons they are allowed to go wild.

"why don't they rotate the prophets in the shahada then?"

But why?, why do you want to force me to rotate between prophets/messengers of god?

Prophet mohamed is the messenger for humankind today. Jesus is not my prophet mohammed is. Jesus or moses did not come for me but mohammed did. Jesus and moses came for the jews/israelites. I dont deny them , i respect them believe in them.

So why would you want to force me into saying: "There is no god but allah and Jesus is his messenger"

and then next week ...and moses is his messenger?

If i did say that , i might as well read the bible and torah and follow it!

Its absolutely not an issue, there might be a debate/argument in muslim countries maybe even uproar as you suggested but really not an issue.

"Well, in the coauthored article with Dawood they wrote "Our Creator"

hmm dont know about that, but he did say soon he will show his credentials/willing to go in debate in public.

"Besides, the main thing is that the majority of Muslims today and especially those in authority have to put policies in place to stamp out this practice or marriage to and sexual relations with underage girls."

I agree

Greenforest said...

To Anonymous immediately above:

Wait a minute. I'm not trying to force you to do anything with the shahada. I'm just asking you to consider why, if as you say all the prophets are equal, sometimes other prophets are not also included. It's always just Muhammad. There seems to be a mixed message here in terms of mainstream Islam saying that all the prophets are respected, and yet Muhammad is the only prophet mentioned in the shahada. Even Ali sometimes gets mentioned as a viceroy or caliph in a Shia version, but not other prophets.

"hmm dont know about that, but he did say soon he will show his credentials/willing to go in debate in public."

If he's saying that, I have my doubts about that. I don't expect that you're going to see a writer come out, with his real name, and identify himself as the Loonwatch writer with the pen name Danios. Just a hunch.

Anonymous said...

"I'm just asking you to consider why, if as you say all the prophets are equal, sometimes other prophets are not also included. It's always just Muhammad."

Its always mohammed because mohammed is the prophet of the muslims. Not jesus or moses or jacob etc...

According to islamic tradition when we die, in our grave we will be asked who is your god what is your religion and who is your prophet. Mohamed is the prophet of muslims.

thats why no other reason...not because we love mohamed more than jesus or moses.

shias have their own ways.

celltech said...

@Greenforest

Reg. "But they are tied to the Old Testament, unfortunately, and don't seem willing to shake it off or revise it and remove the bad material. Islam is similar..."

What on earth are you going on about. There is nothing in the OT, that can at all be understood as commandments to commit violence. The accounts that we do read, are presented as historical records. This plain and obvious, where God instructs a specific people to act in a specific way towards a specific people, at a specific point in time. In addition to this, we are given specific reasons for why God commanded these things back then.


Also to suggest that these historical accounts are simmilar to what we are confronted with in Qur'an, where commandments to commit violence are clearly meant to be direct commandments for all muslims, at all times, is to grossly misrepresent the reality of these two texts. You go on about revising texts, as though this is a sensible idea...when there is nothing at all in biblical texts that teaches the miss-treatment of others as something that God would want us to go out and act on. Not one single thing.


In fact, the messages of the two texts are in severe opposition in every important respect. This is to say of course, that your comment regarding this, is inacurate, if not a little careless.

I'm just saying...

Anonymous said...

What the Quran-bashers Don’t Want You to Know About the Bible

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/03/what-the-quran-bashers-dont-want-you-to-know-about-the-bible/


The Understanding Jihad Series: Is Islam More Likely Than Other Religions to Encourage Violence?

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/03/the-understanding-jihad-series-is-islam-more-likely-than-other-religions-to-encourage-violence/

poison-parlour said...

There is a poem, written in Sanskrit by a great Hindu saint, that is read from top to bottom tells the story of Lord Rama (an incarnation of Vishnu) and if read from bottom to top tells the story of Krishna (the incarnation, and most popular, of Vishnu after Rama).

If you read the Quran back to front you'd wind up with gobble-dee-gook.

Shah said...

Muhammad P.B.U.H is mentioned 5 times in Quran 4 times as Muhammad and 1 time as Ahmed.

Baityrjow said...

Scribing during the life of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). The Revelation scribes wrote down the Quran, according to the order of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), on pieces of cloth, leather, bones, and stones.

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Anonymous said...

After studying & researching I find
Muhammad was not a good man.He killed all the who in his way, A dictator, He shows no mercy to any one. Simply He is not a prophet.